Urp!

Herb Says:

Dear Liz,

I do hope your enjoying your time and relaxing too.

I’m pleased that we have interests as well as differences of opinion on some of the issues of ECT.

As to my referring to your friends I recall reading one of your responses to me referring to these individuals with similar thinking as you referred to them as “my friends” so I was politely addressing them in kind.

“It’s not about being positive or negative — it’s about telling the truth.” — Liz Spikol

Now that is an interesting topic for discussion. Just what is the truth? Is it you and your friend’s truth or is it my truth or the truth as presented by the professionals or is it something like the truth arrived at in the O.J. trial or is it Bush’s truth or what the public now perceive as the truth?

“Herb owns stock in Cyberonics, by the way, which doesn’t mean he’s not telling the truth, but that he’d be reluctant to say something was wrong if it was. So that’s why he’s always positive, and why I always seem negative.” — Liz Spikol

Hmmm! The truth again…your truth or my truth? My truth is I own shares in the company. My truth is I felt it proper to disclose on my website offering that I purchased shares. Your truth appears to me anyway to be headline truth. That is like some reporters I’ve challenged in the past for not really digging deeply to ascertain all the facts or a more thorough investigation to arrive at the facts and possible truth. Yes, I purchased shares and…

Your truth by way of your statement “but that he’d be reluctant to say something was wrong if it was” obviates the fact to me that as I stated previously you appear to only research headlines. My truth is you’re wrong and if you had delved more deeply and followed my writings currently and through the years you would be better educated and have the answers to your statement.

“So that’s why he’s always positive, and why I always seem negative.” — Liz Spikol

I’ll venture a response from my experiences and knowledge there are truths to that statement. By nature I tend to prefer to be positive and to seek answers (facts) and problem solve. From my years of support and care giving as well as facilitating I’ve come to also learn that mood disorders and in particular MDD (Major Depressive Disorder) can lead individuals to exhibit negative responses and similar traits. I have also come to learn that quite often individuals seeking wellness and having encountered serious side-effects from treatments tend denigrate the treatment, on occasion their physicians and in a number of instances calling for the banning of said treatment. I see the truth in VNS Therapy from the results my spouse has obtained like no other therapy. I also read the same truth and positive efficacy for other patients who like my spouse have not suffered one, two or five years but for decades without any favorable and more importantly, long-lasting responses as they are now able to achieve. I also read the truth from the leading researchers and thought leaders in the field who deal with this illness on a daily basis, up front and personal.

The truth is I have also found individuals with unsuccessful results and serious side-effects from ECT positioning themselves and calling for the banning of the treatment and others with favorable results and less vocal simply going on about their lives.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

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Herb Says:

Dear Liz,

Sometime ago for whatever reason you had cut short a commentary on one of your ECT topics which kind of bothered me as one of the comments was specifically and somewhat impolitely directed toward me. Since I make a sincere effort in my proactive mental health advocacy and activism to not speak out of my hat or to propagate hearsay I felt now was an appropriate time to reintroduce one of the comments of your friends as you referred to them.

“Oh. My. God.

A lot of words, but you can’t find one place where Juli or I advocate banning anything. In our words, not yours.

Please get a life.

And as to what am I doing? I have written a book. I hope you will read what I say instead of speaking for me.

Good night.”

Posted by: Linda Andre | December 30, 2006 11:39 PM

http://trouble.philadelphiaweekly.com/archives/2006/12/funday_ect_stud.html#comment-19520

“There is no medical, moral, or legal justification for ECT” — Juli Lawrence

http://www.vnsdepression.com/pp10-739i00011-articles_1-28-04-Shock-of-the-Old-Electroconvulsive-therapy-makes-a-comeback.htm

Since I am not a journalist as are you and your friend’s maybe you can interpret for me what it is Ms. Lawrence is stating in simple English or is this example of poetic or journalistic license or by chance was she misquoted?

I’d be very interested in your reply.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Juli Says:

That’s a quote from an article on the website. It’s from, I think, one of the articles by Dr. Hanafy Youssef.

I’ve never said anything like that. Try again. If you can’t tell the difference between a quote from an article on the site, and something I myself have said, then I cannot help you.

So, yes, you’ve misquoted me.

Juli

Herb Says:

Hi Juli,

“So, yes, you’ve misquoted me.” – Juli Lawrence

The first point; I did not misquote you. I quoted from an article which I read and cited as such.

“That’s a quote from an article on the website. It’s from, I think, one of the articles by Dr. Hanafy Youssef.” – Juli Lawrence

Fact: The quotation was taken from an article I read written by SAM BOYKIN and not from whatever website you allude to and is entitled “Shock of the Old Electroconvulsive therapy makes a comeback” from Creative Loafing.com dated 01.28.04. It makes no mention of a Dr. Hanafy Youssef and the article is posted to the website of Creative Loafing.com

http://charlotte.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?imageIndex=2&oid=oid%3A4058

“Then I cannot help you.” – Juli Lawrence

To the contrary, you have helped me a great deal in that I’ve learned to take snapshots of screen postings of what you and others have said before postings are deleted or opposing viewpoints are censured, edited and/or deleted to cover ones tracks or to bias a discussion or to character assassinate opposition participants. I’ve learned although I didn’t learn fast enough at the time, lacking much needed computer skills and knowledge, I did not record as an example the case of Legislator Ms. Katherine Bryson’s proposed bill to the Utah Legislature in which you advocated and encouraged your group to write and advocate for banning the use of ECT for individuals younger than 18 years of age and for pregnant women. The bill was amended after my lengthy informational conversation with Congresswoman Bryson, presented to the House, then passed and eventually killed in the Utah Senate. Obviously you may have forgotten that incident too or maybe I too am misunderstanding your intent not to speak of your similar postings some 8 years ago before excommunication became the order of the day for having opposed your opinions and that of your long time regulars. It seems nothing has changed. The one or two expressing favorable results are still challenged and ostracized.

“I’ve never said anything like that. Try again. If you can’t tell the difference between a quote from an article on the site, and something I myself have said…” – Juli Lawrence

Obviously Mr. Sam Boykin is another of those co-conspirators opposed to you. Here is another instance where I wish to take a moment to address the topic of “the truth.” No Juli, “the truth” is I cited what Mr. Boykin wrote but things you have to say are questionable as well as confusing based upon Boykin’s article and your past history and statements which I’ve read.

Then again, “the truth” is maybe I simply get the wrong impression from your writings sort of like when you defamed my character along with your newest “Global Moderator” when in fact you did little to no research but just jump to conclusions.

I’d certainly be interested in your comments about Boykin’s article.

As always, I wish you continued wellness.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Juli Says:

There’s no conspiracy here, just a perfect example of very sloppy journalism.

BTW, the full url to that is:
http://charlotte.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A4058

Somehow the article ID was cut off.

This reporter did not speak with me. Everything he quotes is taken from the website, which happens more than one would expect. But that’s not the big deal. The big deal is that he did misquote me.

The justification quote is from a journal article by Dr. Hanafy Youssef in the journal Advances in Therapy. It’s in both the abstract and conclusion.

http://www.ect.org/the-death-of-electroconvulsive-therapy/

I am so stunned by this. I just cannot imagine how anyone, particularly a reporter looking for quotes, could confuse the things I write on the site, and a journal article that is clearly written by Dr. Youssef and others.

This goes beyond misquoting. It’s just bad, bad journalism. Wow.

Juli

Herb Says:

Dear Juli,

I thank you for taking your valuable time to clarify the improper attribution of that quote to you. I am once again reminded of and old adage; doctor’s mistakes are buried, lawyers mistakes are behind bars and journalists mistakes are available for all to read.

I would venture a reasonably experienced guess there are some pretty bad journalists out there poorly researching and plying misinformation. So once again thanks for helping me and in this instance to better understand what it was that I was reading and if I were you I certainly would bring this matter to Mr. Boykin’s or the publications attention. We certainly wouldn’t want to further the wrong impression or incorrect position you maintain on ECT which brings me the other point that you as a journalist didn’t address.

Maybe you inadvertently missed responding while researching and documenting the bad journalism of Mr. Sam Boykin. Did you or did you not advocate to your website participants and encourage them to write and support Utah Congresswoman Bryson’s bill to ban the use of ECT for individuals 18 years and younger and from pregnant patients?

Maybe at the same time as skillfully and knowledgeable a journalist as you are you’ll also be able to source that information providing it didn’t disappear into cyberspace as I’ve seen happen.

I do look forward to your response while keeping in mind that which Liz states, “It’s not about being positive or negative — it’s about telling the truth.”

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com